
My conversation with Brian, a Roman Catholic, continues. You can read previous posts by clicking on the links below.
Conversations with a Catholic 1: The Church
Conversations with a Catholic 2: Tradition
Conversations with a Catholic 3: Glasses
Conversations with a Catholic 4: Interpreting Scripture
Brian’s Letter
Let me address the Eucharist, statues and icons, etc. later. Remember, a 2000 year old Church has a lot more to explain than does a church started two weeks ago in someone’s living room. Getting too much thrown at me leads to a disjointed discussion which accomplishes little.
For now, I think it’s important to return to your statement that you don’t see hierarchy and liturgy in scripture. I didn’t go in depth with regards to hierarchy and only cited a passing example or two, which were summarily pooh-poohed. But, let me exert a more thorough attempt at showing liturgy. (Although more thorough, it scarcely scratches the surface, but you should be able to catch the gist of it.)
This isn’t about “proof texts”, but is more an arms length view of scripture. So, lay your Baptist glasses on the desk for a moment, and try on these Catholic glasses…
First, for definition sake, liturgy is ritual public worship that is sacrificial. The NT speaks of John the Baptist’s father, Zechariah, fulfilling his time of priestly “service” in the Temple. Luke uses the Greek word “leitourgeios” to describe this. That’s basically the root of the word, and the Jews had liturgical worship, and Christians have liturgical worship. Indeed, virtually every page of scriptures points to liturgy.
Recall the Genesis creation story. In Genesis 1 and 2 we see a divine liturgy. God could have created the world in a split second, yet he did so in a progression and a procession over 6 days. Then on the seventh day, the consecration so to speak, took place as the seventh day was declared holy. Consider this as you recall Solomon’s building of the temple. Though a mammoth undertaking, he made certain is was built so that it could be completed to be consecrated in the seventh year. Not proof texts, yet these are illustrative of liturgy. Know that over half of the Pentateuch is liturgical ritual worship.
Consider Noah, who was called to gather “clean” animals (a liturgical reference to the clean animals required for sacrifice). Once off the ark, a sacrifice was made and a renewal of the covenant. You know a covenant is more than law… it’s kinship, and more than that, it’s how that family celebrates its familial life. This is liturgy. Liturgy provides entrance to this covenantal family… circumcision in the OT, and baptism in the NT. Also, God renews his covenant. The OT says in places, “… and God remembered his covenant.” Does anyone think he forgot it? No, remembering his covenant means renewing his covenant. That’s liturgy. This liturgical, covenantal relationship to the OT Jews took the form of festivals, Passover, the Day of Atonement, the feast of Tabernacles, and pilgrimages, all following the calendar.
Jesus can be seen observing such as stories of his childhood tell us of his life revolving around the Temple in Jerusalem. And all four gospels contain stories where he returned to the Temple throughout his ministry. Mark’s gospel in particular is disproportionately centered on the 6 or 7 days leading up to the passion (the sacrifice of the New Covenant). This coincided with the Passover feast. Passover is where the Jews would kill the unblemished lamb, spread his blood, and they would eat the lamb. One cannot miss the liturgical parallel of this and the Last Supper and Crucifixion. This is also reminiscent of Ex 19-24 where the Book of the Covenant is mentioned, and the covenant is sealed as the sacrifice is made and the blood is thrown upon the alter, the Book, and the people.
But, you may be thinking, I see what you are saying, but you Catholics take it too far with your rituals bordering on superstition, especially as contained in the Mass. Not so! What do we find in the book of Revelation?… an alter, a Lamb, a Book, candles, incense, virgin priests (celibacy anyone?), robes, and those involved are chanting “Holy, Holy, Holy.” Hmmm… All that liturgy kinda sounds like the Mass to me. What about the walk to Emmaus? Jesus tells the two disciples how scripture is fulfilled (the Word), and they finally see him in the “breaking of the bread” (the Eucharist). That’s why the Mass contains two parts, the “liturgy of the Word” and the “liturgy of the Eucharist,” and in the Mass we read OT readings, psalms, and a Gospel reading in the liturgy of the Word, and we celebrate communion in the liturgy of the Eucharist.
Lastly, let me say that the OT promises are fulfilled in Christ’s sacrifice, for he said he didn’t come to abolish the law, but to fulfill it, and this fulfillment doesn’t end with his sacrifice, for these promises live in the life of the Church and it’s people and is renewed through the sacraments. Liturgy inseparably links the body of Christ and the communion of saints for all time as it enables us to step into the stream-bed of salvation history.
Through liturgy, Christ’s sacrifice becomes a present reality. His sacrifice, once, for all, is mysteriously ever-present before the Father. Liturgy plugs us into that. Contrast my broad illustrations of “liturgical worship” in this email with the much of Protestantism’s idea of worship… singing and preaching a sermon. That’s not to say those aren’t commendable, but they don’t contain the fullness of all that worship is. Ultimately, if nothing else, Christians should get “worship” right. But, what is the fullness of worship… appreciating a sunset, a hymn, good preaching? I don’t think so. Fortunately, God provided the means to worship as he desires. I know what that is, and I pray that all will worship in accord with what he has laid out for us in liturgy.
This conversation continues here.
As a liturgical Methodist, someone who both affirms the primacy of scripture and the importance of the liturgy let me commend Brian on doing a good job of explaining the liturgy from a RCC and scriptural context. As a former RCCer I think you did a fair job of presenting the RCC view, and as a mainline protestant I think you did a fair job with the scripture as well.
I do think however you also show the weakness of the position liturgy holds in RCC life. It comes up right in your last paragraph: Ultimately, if nothing else, Christians should get “worship” right. The RCC is so concerned with the form of worship that they sometimes miss the call of the God whom they worship.
The prophet Micah does a great job in giving voice to that call (6:6-8 NIV):
With what shall I come before the LORD
and bow down before the exalted God?
Shall I come before him with burnt offerings,
with calves a year old?
Will the LORD be pleased with thousands of rams,
with ten thousand rivers of oil?
Shall I offer my firstborn for my transgression,
the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul?
He has showed you, O man, what is good.
And what does the LORD require of you?
To act justly and to love mercy
and to walk humbly with your God.
So an essential part of the fullness of worship, found in Micah is doing Justice, loving Mercy, and walking humbly with God. If anything else I think the prophetic tradition, that is continued in Jesus’ disregard of the Sabbath order (liturgical correctness?) to heal, would suggest good lives over good liturgy. Thus when the effect of the increased emphasis on the Kerygma in Baptist Liturgies is matched with an increased emphasis on whole life spirituality I am for it.
Comment by Nate Custer — May 26, 2007 @ 3:32 am
Nate,
I’m confused by your critique of the Catholic Church that it “is so concerned with the form of worship that they sometimes miss the call of the God whom they worship.” I’m sure we all miss the call at times, but are you suggesting it is endemic to Catholicism to miss the call to do justice, love mercy and walk humbly with God?
Personally, I don’t think we have to choose between good liturgy and good lives. Good liturgy inspires good living, and good living will build within a person the desire to worship God in good liturgy.
Bob Hunt
Knoxville, TN
Comment by Bob Hunt — May 26, 2007 @ 6:50 am
As someone who is rather passionate about moving away from liturgy and ritual in the church, I find this conversation interesting. I don’t disagree that there’s ritual in the Bible. The question is, what are we to make of it today, in our own time and culture?
I submit to you (both of you) that many of the famous Biblical characters, particularly David, regularly engaged in spontaneous acts of worship and fellowship with God and were criticized by men (and praised by God Himself) because of it. I also submit to you that beyond Baptism and the Lord’s Supper, we’re not obligated to be involved in any regular practice other than what is naturally agreed on or organically arises with a local body of believers. I think it borders on sin when we try too hard to control the sequence of events and the involvement of members during a church service, thereby quenching the Spirit and crowding out the ability for God’s love and spiritual works to be made manifest in people’s hearts.
If there’s any case to be made for regular observances, I could argue that we’re still supposed to be keeping the OT Biblical feasts like Passover, the Feast of Tabernacles, etc. The RCC mass, the typical cookie-cutter Protestant service, etc. — they are perfectly fine as cultural expressions of various church bodies, but I see no scriptural evidence that they are inherently the God-ordained way to do church. In fact, many of the aspects of “church” in all of the traditional denominations evolved out of pagan temple practices in the Roman empire.
Just thought I’d chime in with my own 2c. Feel free to pile on me now. ;)
Comment by Jared White — May 31, 2007 @ 3:30 pm
Jared, I’m not one to pile on, so I won’t. Your view reminds me of the old Puritan worship where folks would gather in the church, no preacher, no plan, etc. They’d simply wait on the Spirit to show up, and manifestations were varied. Seems you’re adverse to tradition, yet tradition can serve us by helping us to build on tried and true foundations, while helping us to avoid pitfalls and wastes of time. Spontaneity has its place, but so does structure. For example, is bowing your head when you pray a ritual? Does it destroy spontaneity? What about saying “Amen” at the end of prayer? What about holding laying on of hands? What about gathering in groups versus silent acts of praise? These are very basic, but they ARE ritualistic. Avoiding ritual or liturgy may mean that you miss something big, something important, so keep an open mind. –Brian
Comment by Brian — June 1, 2007 @ 5:08 pm
[...] Conversations with a Catholic Part 5: Liturgy [...]
Pingback by Boudreaux’s Blurbs » Conversations With A Catholic — June 4, 2007 @ 9:42 am
I have found Nate’s point very convincing and I think Bob misunderstood it. Yes, Old Testament worship was liturgical but Jesus himself said that NT worship will be very different, John 4:23-24.
I was tracing the theme in the OT of what does God really want from his people. Yes, he did institute sacrificial worship but, so you might assume that is what He wants. But as Nate pointed out, God was very often unhappy about sacrifices, fasting, burnt offerings, especially when while doing these people neglected “weightier things of the law” – justice and mercy. Micah quote is just one of many.
So, Jesus’ saying that worship will be different and God’s general unhappiness about the worship in OT, and additionally the fact that NT has very little to say about how to do the worship – is it not enough to assume we shouldn’t just follow OT examples.
Comment by Vitali Zagorodnov — December 23, 2007 @ 7:54 pm