Conversations with a Catholic 1: Which Church?

Over the past two weeks, I have been corresponding with a Roman Catholic via email. Brian has graciously allowed me to make our correspondence public, so I will begin posting on this blog our letters to each other. 

Trevin’s Letter

Hi Brian,

It was nice to meet you on Friday and to hear of your mission work to India.

[You asked about my view of the Eastern Orthodox Church.] I have definite opinions on the Orthodox Church, since I did work for 5 years in Romania, which is an Eastern Orthodox country. I have had good and not-so-good experiences with the Orthodox, but I have sought to understand the theology better by reading Orthodox authors and books laying out the differences between Orthodoxy and Protestantism.

I did an interview on my blog with an Eastern Orthodox convert from evangelicalism, and then an interview with a convert the other way. If you are interested, here are the links to those interviews, as well as my thoughts on them.

Theron’s Story: Why I Left Evangelicalism for Eastern Orthodoxy
John’s Story: Why I Left Eastern Orthodoxy for Evangelicalism
Sola Scriptura: The Dividing Line between the Orthodox and Evangelicals

God bless you Brian, and I look forward to hearing from you.

Brian’s Response

I read the articles and came away thinking “What a great discourse!” …And you preserved a sense of fairness and impartiality irrespective of your Baptist background (with minor exception addressed below).

On the whole, I have a few thoughts. First, don’t be quick to dismiss the patristics. There are many first and second century writings (some purely secular historical accounts and others penned by early Christians) that give a detailed accounting of what Christian life was all about. Some of these writings are from men who learned the faith at the knee of Apostles, for example Polycarp, who was a disciple of John. Reading these one sees that the early Church closely resembled the Orthodox church. It was deeply liturgical, hierarchical, and sacramental. These accounts will not reveal a church which in any way resembles Protestantism.

Most of the earnest Protestants I know espouse, “We want to go back to the church of the upper room,” and then they cobble together their vision of what this might have looked like, not realizing that we have solid account of exactly what this church looked like. I highly recommend a book called “Four Witnesses” which examines the life of four of the early church fathers.

Secondly, in Theron’s interview it appears you’ve confused justification by “faith” alone and justification by “grace” alone. Such confusion is common, but the Orthodox and Roman Catholic Churches (RCC) have always condemned as heretical any teaching that there is salvation aside from God’s grace alone. Theron recognizes this and shifts the discussion to salvation by “faith” alone, although I’ve never heard salvation couched in “medical terms” as you eluded too – familial terms, yes, but not medical. Too lengthy to address here, I’ll simply state that Orthodox and RCC teach that faith and works flow from God’s grace, and they are inseparable (like two sides of the same coin). Mysterious yes, but fully supported by scripture. (Perhaps in some later correspondence I’ll produce supporting scripture.) Our faith is a gift of God’s grace, as are our works, and faith alone is not sufficient for salvation, nor are works wrought by our own effort (pelagianism).

One criticism where I see some unfairness in the treatment of Theron’s interview was bringing up the priests who threatened to cut off fingers. This seemed like dirty pool. With the roles reversed, Theron I’m sure could easily produce unsavory activity by Baptist pastors or youth ministers if he so desired, yet doing so might seem unfair, and indeed would be.

Is sola scriptura is the dividing line as you say? In a sense, but ultimately the dividing line is a broader question of where one’s authority lies. Did Jesus form one Church? If so, I want to be a part of it and want to submit to it (Mt 18:17, 1 Tim 3:15). Where is that Church? Is there a lineage that can be traced, or is it invisible? What role does scriptures have within this church? Does holy scriptures belong to the Church, within her bosom, or has the Church sprung from scriptures? Might Mt 16 more aptly said, “Thou art Peter, and on later writings I will build my church”? All such questions are important fodder for finding truth.

Lastly, like others who responded to your blog, I feel sad about the Orthodox guy who left for Protestantism. Don’t get me wrong… I’m glad he’s on fire for Jesus. But, it reminds me of how the social and political forces negative impacted the RCC, and how similar forces in Geneva negatively affected Calvin’s efforts. Governments and monarchies, acting in the name of Christianity, will muddle things every time. It’s sad that it happens, and it’s sad that John couldn’t find the proper perspective which would enable him to see Jesus, both in the Eucharist and in general in the Orthodox church.

This conversation continues here.